Jeffro, Please explain these facts from a material naturalistic view:
1. The case of Anna in the video I posted on page 2 of this thread2. Cases of seeing things while out of their body later verified to be accurate
3. Cases of verified brain dead patients acting and speaking completely normally shortly before death
These facts are not going away no matter how much you may like them to.
Sea Breeze
JoinedPosts by Sea Breeze
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98
Who raised Jesus from the dead?
by Blotty ini have seen arguments surrounding jesus' resurrection being proof of "the trinity" - now while in some cases it's a good argument the evidence for it remains very weak.
(bible quotes are from the nwt but other bibles are referenced, use whichever you please) this following version of it is a good example.. "the bible indicates that all [persons] of the trinity was involved in jesus’ resurrection.
galatians[1:1] says that the father raised jesus from the dead.
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Sea Breeze
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98
Who raised Jesus from the dead?
by Blotty ini have seen arguments surrounding jesus' resurrection being proof of "the trinity" - now while in some cases it's a good argument the evidence for it remains very weak.
(bible quotes are from the nwt but other bibles are referenced, use whichever you please) this following version of it is a good example.. "the bible indicates that all [persons] of the trinity was involved in jesus’ resurrection.
galatians[1:1] says that the father raised jesus from the dead.
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Sea Breeze
Little more that "thought stopping techniques" and false analagies bordering on the falacy of irrelevant thesis.
I was subjected to these kinds of thoght control devices since childhood by the Watchtower and my fammily. I am very familiar with them. They seem like distant cousins now.
None of the evidence being examined here has anything to do whith aliens or shamans. We are talking about facts from credible sources.
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I don't think you understand what an ad hominem is.Definition:
(of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.
Asking if you are an atheist is not a negative or a positive directed against you.
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98
Who raised Jesus from the dead?
by Blotty ini have seen arguments surrounding jesus' resurrection being proof of "the trinity" - now while in some cases it's a good argument the evidence for it remains very weak.
(bible quotes are from the nwt but other bibles are referenced, use whichever you please) this following version of it is a good example.. "the bible indicates that all [persons] of the trinity was involved in jesus’ resurrection.
galatians[1:1] says that the father raised jesus from the dead.
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Sea Breeze
@Jeffro Do you really believe that if I ask you if you are an atheist, that amounts to an ad hominem attack?
C'mon Jeffro. Get off your high horse. That is a crazy thing to say. I have no problem stating that I am a Christian. What harm is it to at least provide some definition here on your part; especially since you have made the following vast claims on this thread?1."No one raised Jesus from the Dead
2. the 'gospels' are widely regarded by scholars as historical, are simply false
3. None of that has any basis in reality whatsoever. (conscious soul)
4. Beliefs about consciousness independent of a functioning physical body are just made up nonsense
experiences that are no more ‘real’ than a dream
5. This is a plain old argument from ignorance.
6. I don’t need to offer any speculative alternatives to your superstitions.
Certainly someone who has as many strong opinions as you do would have an opinion on whether or not God exists. I believe you are very likely to have an opinion on this topic. Why wouldn't you want disclose whether not you believe God exists on a forumn that deals specifically with theological and philosophical views and on a thread dealing with the existence of God?
The facts I've presented haven't changed since we started this discussion.
1. The case of Anna in the video I posted on page 2 of this thread
2. Cases of seeing things while out of their body later verified to be accurate
3. Cases of verified brain dead patients acting and speaking completely normally shortly before death
Here's the question you keep dodging:
Do these facts better fit a materialist view where consciousness is said to be ONLY a product of physical brain function? Or, do they better fit a biblical view where consciousness is said to be separate from the body, especially at death?Or, do you consider yourself beyond the reach of scrutiny of your claims from others?
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98
Who raised Jesus from the dead?
by Blotty ini have seen arguments surrounding jesus' resurrection being proof of "the trinity" - now while in some cases it's a good argument the evidence for it remains very weak.
(bible quotes are from the nwt but other bibles are referenced, use whichever you please) this following version of it is a good example.. "the bible indicates that all [persons] of the trinity was involved in jesus’ resurrection.
galatians[1:1] says that the father raised jesus from the dead.
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Sea Breeze
Are you an atheist Jeffro?
I happen to believe that atheists and Christians can get along quite well. Here's an atheist / Christian book club where each are able to discuss their views after reading a book favorable to their side. Doesn't that sound fascinating? -
98
Who raised Jesus from the dead?
by Blotty ini have seen arguments surrounding jesus' resurrection being proof of "the trinity" - now while in some cases it's a good argument the evidence for it remains very weak.
(bible quotes are from the nwt but other bibles are referenced, use whichever you please) this following version of it is a good example.. "the bible indicates that all [persons] of the trinity was involved in jesus’ resurrection.
galatians[1:1] says that the father raised jesus from the dead.
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Sea Breeze
Why would I need to?
Because of the facts Jeffro. Just the facts. The ones you ignore.
Are you an atheist by the way? -
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Similarities Between JW's & Mormons
by Sea Breeze inover the years, i have found it helpful to see the similarites between jw's and mormons to help me understand what happened to me and my family as jw's.
robert bryan discusses this in one of the best presentations i have heard on the topic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wok7e3utzy8&ab_channel=bibleready .
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Sea Breeze
Robert explains how as a Mormon, he was utterly sure that he knew all there was to know about the bible and everyone else was simply deceived. That is EXACTLY how my JW family was.
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Similarities Between JW's & Mormons
by Sea Breeze inover the years, i have found it helpful to see the similarites between jw's and mormons to help me understand what happened to me and my family as jw's.
robert bryan discusses this in one of the best presentations i have heard on the topic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wok7e3utzy8&ab_channel=bibleready .
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Sea Breeze
Over the years, I have found it helpful to see the similarites between JW's and Mormons to help me understand what happened to me and my family as JW's.
Robert Bryan discusses this in one of the best presentations I have heard on the topic.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOK7e3UTzY8&ab_channel=BibleReady
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98
Who raised Jesus from the dead?
by Blotty ini have seen arguments surrounding jesus' resurrection being proof of "the trinity" - now while in some cases it's a good argument the evidence for it remains very weak.
(bible quotes are from the nwt but other bibles are referenced, use whichever you please) this following version of it is a good example.. "the bible indicates that all [persons] of the trinity was involved in jesus’ resurrection.
galatians[1:1] says that the father raised jesus from the dead.
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Sea Breeze
This game of ‘if you don’t know the exact reason, then whatever I say is the right explanation (or even plausible)’ really is very dull.
Jeffro,
You are the one that appears to be playing games with logic Jeffro. Are you a committed atheist?
Specifically, you are erecting a straw man here. This is incorrect thinking.... something that people with a cult background struggle with. The question is how a person shortly before death can become completely lucid when the brain is severely destroyed? So far you have have not provided ANY guesses at all."There are a number of cases reported where patients who were dying of malignant tumours that destroyed almost the entirety of the brain, confirmed by radiological investigations like CT scans and MRI, waking up and discussing their lives and imminent death, lucidly". Article
Do these facts better fit a materialist view where consciousness is said to be ONLY a product of physical brain function? Or, do they better fit a biblical view where consciousness is said to be separate from the body, especially at death?
Here is just one example out of thousands: A person clinically dies on the operating table and their consciousness leaves their body. She sees various doctors, sees where they put things and even drifts outside the hospital above the roof and sees a particualr kind of tennis show on the roof.
Later upon reviving, she relates these details and even describes the color of shoe on the roof. When checked out, all the details she relates while out of her body are found to be accurate.Please explain these facts from a material naturalistic view:
1. The case of Anna in the video I posted on page 2 of this thread2. Cases of seeing things while out of their body later verified to be accurate
3. Cases of verified brain dead patients acting and speaking completely normally shortly before death
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98
Who raised Jesus from the dead?
by Blotty ini have seen arguments surrounding jesus' resurrection being proof of "the trinity" - now while in some cases it's a good argument the evidence for it remains very weak.
(bible quotes are from the nwt but other bibles are referenced, use whichever you please) this following version of it is a good example.. "the bible indicates that all [persons] of the trinity was involved in jesus’ resurrection.
galatians[1:1] says that the father raised jesus from the dead.
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Sea Breeze
People who aren’t dead provide details of experiences when they were near death....
@Jeffro , that is a fallacy of false dichotomy. Incorrect thinking. I believe it is important to learn to think correctly after leaving a cult, which I assume you did the same as I.
The discussion regarding terminal lucidity and NDE's is not whether or not a dead physical body can experience things.
The discussion is how do you explain from a materialist worldview the hundreds of thousands of cases where people, minutes or hours before death, suddenly are perfectly lucid and can talk who have not done so for years or even decades prior? This phenomena is consistent with the idea that the soul leaves the body when the body stops functioning.Many cases have been documented of this happening in patients with:
1. Severe mental retardation when the patient has never spoken since birth.
2. Severe Alzheimers patients where the brain has derterioated to the point of showing little more than a functionaing cebral cortex to sustain heart beat, breathing etc.
3. Severe dementia patients who have no clue who they or anyone else is.
Is this not strong circumstantial evidence for consciousness existing apart from the physical body, especially when brain scans shown little left of the physical brain?How do you explain the many documented cases of NDE's where the patient clinically dies, their consciousness leaves their body and they see many details in nearby rooms? Once revived, they tell others who find the information to be true.
Behaviour of neurotransmitters near death is fairly well understood.
Again, this is false reasoning. The subject being discussed is consciousness, not neuro transmitters. Numerous studies are just beginning to be conducted in these areas.
How do you explain having any experience without a nervous system?
I get my explanation from God's word which says that souls have consciousness. The medical facts are on my side here. How do you expalin terminal lucidity and NDE's with just a nervous system?
Beliefs about consciousness independent of a functioning physical body are just made up nonsense based on ignorance and wishful thinking.
Really? I don't think so. I believe the soul is your true consciousness. The physical brain with its neuro transmitters is simply the interface by which conscienceness can perceive and interact within a physical environment. I believe that TL cases and NDE's are consistent with this view and are impossible to explain from a materialist worldview.
You are more than welcome to try though. -
98
Who raised Jesus from the dead?
by Blotty ini have seen arguments surrounding jesus' resurrection being proof of "the trinity" - now while in some cases it's a good argument the evidence for it remains very weak.
(bible quotes are from the nwt but other bibles are referenced, use whichever you please) this following version of it is a good example.. "the bible indicates that all [persons] of the trinity was involved in jesus’ resurrection.
galatians[1:1] says that the father raised jesus from the dead.
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Sea Breeze
If a person dies and everything deteriorates so that there is no connection to his previous existence, then resurrection can only be duplication.
Exactly TM. The reason that JW's don't know what a resurrection is, is because they don't know what a death is.
The WT lies to its members and says that an immortal soul concept was stolen from Plato and Greek culture. Yet, in what may be the oldest book in the bible, we have a soul departing and a death occuring simutaneously:
Gen. 36: 18 - And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.The biblical definition of death is the separation of the soul, spirit, & body. A resurrection is just the opposite: A reintegration of the soul, spirit, & body.
Once a person has been conceived, they will be conscious forevermore. Jesus reccomends that we give some thought as to where we would like to spend eternity, either separated from our body (and God as well) or in OUR OWN BODY as part of God's family. It really is a very simple question.